https://cn.vogon.today/%e9%96%8b%e5%a7%8b%e9%9b%9c%e8%aa%8c/%e9%be%8d%e9%82%84%e6%98%af%e6%b7%b7%e6%b2%8c%ef%bc%9f-festa-%e5%92%8c-sapelli-%e9%97%9c%e6%96%bc%e6%96%b0%e6%9b%b8%e7%9a%84%e5%b0%8d%e8%a9%b1/
龍還是混沌? Festa 和 Sapelli 關於新書的對話